we have brains

sex work

January 12, 2003 10:21 PM posted by april : track it (0)

I've been meaning to bring up this topic for awhile - the sex industry and the people who work in it. I'm surprised no one else has brought it up in the months we've had this site. [Actually, one person did bring it up awhile ago - questioning why we linked to Fat Girl Breakdown, where the site mistress is a phone sex operator and the staff encourages amateur porn. I said then, and continue to believe, that whatever your feelings about sex work, the FGBD message overall is too important to ignore.]

Feminist opinions on the subject of porn, stripping and prostitution seem to not so much vary as fall towards one extreme or the other. You're feminists - so either you love porn, or you hate it - or at least, that's the story as most feminist and non-feminist media would tell it.

But you tell me - how do you feel about porn? About sex work? Do you consume pornography in any form? Are sex workers victims of exploitation?

Whatever you feel about the sex industry, lay it on out. I'd like to hear about it, and it's an important conversation for us to have.

COMMENTS (restored from backup)

I actually wanted to ask this question, but didn't want to seem like all I have is sex on the brain. Aww, who am I fooling? All I think about is gyrating girlies. My post is up.
these are the thoughts of kerri on January 12, 2003 11:10 PM
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i would hate to think that people would avoid my site because i was a phone slut. its my job, and i do it with integrity, and i deserve respect for it.

and either way, its my own damn business, and Fat Girl Break Down is about BODIES not sex work. A note to whoever said that: FGBD is not ME, it is everyone else who contributes, and everybody else who comes to visit. FGBD is not abou sex work and it doesn't "encourage" it either. What FGBD DOES encourage is finding the freedom inside you to make your own choices, and fucking LOVE yourself no matter what it takes.

If anybody wants to call me a fucking victim, they can kiss my ass. I think I'd be more of a "victim of exploitation" working at a huge company, honestly.

What I am a victim of, however, is discrimination against sex workers. Im more exploited by anti-porn bitches than I am the guys I talk to. This is a JOB just like any other job and so what if it's about sex? Your anti-porn time would be better spent, in my opinion, trying to help sluts stay healthy, safe, and respected, and stop blaming US for the downfall of mankind.

I'm still shocked that someone would diss a fat-positivity web zine for having a sex worker creator.

On a side not, FGBD doesnt "encourage amateur porn." We post erotica. Just because we're naked doens't mean we're doing porn. Thank you very much.

Seperate form FGBD, I do host an amatuer erotica site that encourages people to be themselves and make thier own kind of porn. Porn is fucking AWESOME, especially when it's made with style, personality, and subversity!!!

Mainstream porn fucking SUCKS. Just about any magazine you pick up is going to suck. But then you have feminists creating porn, and punk people creating porn, and people doing DIY porn and chubby chick porn and goth porn and thats HOT!! It's exciting to DO and its exciting to LOOK AT. And it's fun. And it's freedom.

If feminism is about equality, and about women being able to make thier own choices, I don't see why you have a problem with women doing what they want with thier bodies and minds.

That's all I have to say.

- Jill of all Sex Trades
these are the thoughts of courtney on January 12, 2003 11:47 PM
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can i also say that im sad that this site DOESNT have any sex work link on the list? i could offer a great list if you were interested...
these are the thoughts of courtney on January 12, 2003 11:54 PM
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okay, my post's up....
these are the thoughts of magenta girl on January 13, 2003 08:35 AM
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Woo! I actually posted something. I like FGBD a lot, by the way. :)
these are the thoughts of Sara on January 13, 2003 09:37 AM
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I don't see why some people think that women can't or shouldn't enjoy porn. To me that's like someone saying that women can't or shouldn't enjoy sex. It doesn't make sense. More?
these are the thoughts of Cissy on January 13, 2003 03:27 PM
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OK. I blathered a bit.
these are the thoughts of Tish on January 13, 2003 05:22 PM
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Posted on the Great Blog of April. I blathered a LOT. This issue really riles me sometimes, the reductive ways we tend to talk about it as feminists. I'm not sure I succeeded in not being simplistic, but I tried.

And I agree, you can be naked and not doing porn - but erotica's just another perspective on pornographic taste, as far as I'm concerned. Call it whatever you like - it's porn, and I'm cool with it. ;)
these are the thoughts of april on January 13, 2003 06:27 PM
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first let me say, I am a skinny girl, but I think FGBD rocks the cabash!

I consider myself a feminist, and I am a women's studies major. I also enjoy erotica and some types of porn. I regularly buy On Our Backs: The Best of Lesbian sex the magazine. I really enjoy their positive view on sexuality and how they portray diversity in the size, shapes, colors, and genders of women. I like the fact that they also include trans people in their porn. I have also enjoyed the services of ssspread.com, suicidegirls.com and cyber-dyke.net, I turned to these sites in order to try to find more of what I think is sex positive porn.

I know that there is an anti porn movement in the feminist world. But I am fairly new to feminism and I haven’t read much on the topic, so I don't know if I really should even discuss this subject. I do know that while I enjoy some porn, I don't like a lot of the porn that is aimed at heterosexual men. Seeing a man coming on women’s face does not turn me on. In fact I find it very degrading.

as for the sex industry, I’ve never been to a strip club of any kind or had any other involvement. I had a friend who was a dancer and other than sustaining her momentarily I did not see that is had any positive effects on her. I have read that some women find sex work to be empowering. But I personally believe for me, it would be degrading. Form what I can tell, the effects of sex work on women varies from person to person. Some women may enjoy it, but other women may be negatively effected by it. I do believe that women who work in the sex industry should have the same protection on the job as any other worker. I believe this, because they are human and deserve all the same rights as other. But in my ideal world, I would like to see everyone educated and not have to work jobs that could possibly be harmfully psychologically and physically. In and ideal world no man or woman should have to sell their body to make money.

These are some very premature thoughts, as I have not done research in the area and I am fairly ignorant. I hope this has helped a bit.
these are the thoughts of Heather S. on January 13, 2003 06:59 PM
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Ten or more years ago when I was finding my feminst voice, I was very anti-porn, anti-sex work and felt that everyone involved was either outright lying, or deluding themselves into thinking that anything positive could come from this. I read Andrea Dworkin and thought she was amazing. But, understand that this was at the same time that I was trying unsuccessfully to deal with sexual abuse issues. They were intricately linked for me. And, still are.

In college I knew two different women (who had also been sexually abused) who began to dance so they could afford to stay in school. First, I think its horrible that the only commodity they possessed that would be valued monetarily enough to support themselves, was dancing naked for sleazy men. When they started out (for the first couple of weeks) their self-esteem soured. They began to realize they were attractive, they began to have more physical self-confidence. But, before they could finish their first six-months of dancing, they both suffered pretty horrific sexual attacks. One of the women was attacked walking to her car (a bouncer was mad she'd turned him down and he refused to escort her to her car) the other woman was attacked in the dressing room, by a drunk woman who'd felt spurned. They worked at the same club, and the owner refused to either give them time off to recover, and told them if they reported either incident to the police (or went to the hospital who would be required to report it) he would fire them. So, they didn't.

In some ways I can see how sex-work could be a powerful action. But, I've only known of women who came out demoralized, abused, fearful, and hating men and women. Things need to change before this can be a safe and positive line of work in general.

I've made a short post on my site about this.
these are the thoughts of Cinnamon on January 13, 2003 07:16 PM
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Since porn imagery is everywhere, I'm now demanding greater humility and respect for privacy from the pro-Porn camps -- the acknowledgment that they're only talking about their little niche of "sex", that the ability/need to sexually objectify is just another subset of the whole. They aren't everybody, and they don't have the right to control every image or sex-related discussion. They usually pretend that monogamy, or privacy, or dignity, or sexuality based on love and spirit don't exist. If they acknowledge people who disagree with them at all, it's to call us names. Great way to foster tolerance. Their publications, and films and topics of interest are not suitable for mainstream events or media, and anywhere they do appear, the potential audience should be warned well in advance. This isn't happening, especially at fat acceptance events. They've no right to attempt to monopolize every conversation, or to presume to be the entirety -- or even the mainstream -- of culture.

In particular, the fat acceptance movement will (I hope) split itself off into those segments that do or do not tolerate nudity and raunchy behavior at events (i.e. going topless at dances, keeping feeder mags and other porn out in public view).

Personally, I'm now asking anyone sponsoring a fat-related event what their sexual harassment policy is, and screening heavily for credentials, and any signs of intellect, and topics of study and research and conversation other than the same old NAAFA-style sexist/sex obsessions. I'm fed up (ha!) with what I consider amazingly vulgar behavior, and a total lack of social or political focus. I don't want porn or porn attitudes presuming to pollute my fat activism, or related social events.
these are the thoughts of Kell on January 13, 2003 11:33 PM
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Sex isn't evil, but they need to get it that girls have libidos too. Read the whole rant in "mind."
these are the thoughts of megan on January 14, 2003 02:48 AM
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Wow, great topic. Looks like it really got some of us thinking. My post is up.
these are the thoughts of Trinity on January 15, 2003 12:48 AM
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Answer posted.
these are the thoughts of revolution9 on January 15, 2003 09:10 PM
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i don't see how going topless at dances is vulgar at ALL.

im sick of people sexualizing every expression of nudity. assuming that dancing topless is somehow dirty or innapropriate really tops the cake, though. im sick of women being sexualized whenever our own freedom is involved.

men can go topless all the time, and so can women. get used to it.
these are the thoughts of courtney on January 16, 2003 01:18 AM
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The woman in question, at a "Big Boogie Nights" dance in the Bay Area, was thoroughly drunk, and also dry humping the d.j. She made sure everyone on the block knew she was going for "sexualized". And, there has never been any warning from the organizers (other than the low-class sexism about "men" and "girls" on their site) that their events violate both common decency and good taste on a regular basis.

(At least now y'all are warned, I guess.)
these are the thoughts of Kell on January 17, 2003 12:38 AM
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Posted my thoughts; perma-link this way >>> http://draknetfree.com/maven/sexwork_whb.html
these are the thoughts of Maven on January 17, 2003 01:24 AM
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I have to comment that things like "common decency and good taste" are subjective. Dry-humping a dj in a dance club might not be in the best of taste, but if it is in an 18+ bar/nightclub where minors are not exposed to it, how is this really a problem? I'm not familiar with this dance club in question, but do know that most people who go to these places are aware that they exist only partially for dancing, but mostly as a meat market.
these are the thoughts of kerri on January 17, 2003 11:18 AM
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"...but do know that most people who go to these places are aware that they exist only partially for dancing, but mostly as a meat market."

In this case, "these places" are social events advertised only with the distinction that they're fat-friendly -- there's nothing about their someone being different from any other social event. A "dance" can be anything from a Catholic social to a dressy event at a museum or a Halloween dance at the VFW. The entire world doesn't live in singles bars. If the event's "anything goes", and allows public nudity, they have an obligation to let any potential attendees know in all their advertising, long before anyone actually shows up at the door.

And, "common decency" and "good taste" are not subjective; in many cases, they're actually legal definitions. A good rule of thumb is if you can't do it while standing in line at a grocery store, you shouldn't be doing it any other public space, either.
these are the thoughts of Kell on January 17, 2003 05:03 PM
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kerri, kell's talking about fat acceptance events, not bars and clubs. quite a bit off topic, so i understand your confusion.

kell, when clarifying your facts, a more courteous tone would help avoid misunderstanding and make your perspective more clear. particularly if bringing something relatively off topic to the table, it's helpful for everyone to know exactly what you're talking about. most of this community has no experience of NAAFA events.

and personally, i've done some pretty inappropriate things in the grocery store checkout line. nevertheless, there are differences between a bar, a strip club and the grocery store. in all of those places, the majority opinion rules - you don't get naked in the checkout because most people wouldn't do that - but what you'd do in a bar, where more people are likely to act like dorks and flash their breasts, well that's another thing entirely.

this is also why you get soft core porn on tv, but only at certain hours, or strippers, but only in certain types of clubs - the majority of people want it, but they don't want it everywhere. [i'm trying to rein the conversation back in around the porn sphere and away from how people behave in a non-porn, non-sex work context. this isn't only about the fat activist community and sex, whatever one might think.]

[as a total sidebar - i abhor the phrase "rule of thumb"; i know it has a completely different meaning now, but it's still icky to me.]

these are the thoughts of april on January 17, 2003 09:22 PM
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April- my bad. It seemed like 5 different conversations at once, so things were kind of confusion, and I am not familiar at all with NAAFA...maybe I live in a real liberal area or something (?) .

I have to agree that while it may seem repetitive to explain terms you use, what a particular group is, a definition, a recent event that is not on such a large scale as 9/11, taking this extra step is helpful for those of us not familiar with those things.
these are the thoughts of kerri on January 17, 2003 11:18 PM
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hey, no problem. misunderstandings happen all the time.
these are the thoughts of april on January 18, 2003 03:09 PM

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