Mine is up here I've been waiting for a new topic! BTW, I find it that the shorter the topic, i.e. question, the easier it is to respond. And also, if you're looking for someone new to post questions, please consider me, a view from the "older generation."

I've actually been thinking about this topic a lot lately so I'm glad it came up. I think that one of the most important things is that sexualized violence against women on television needs to be seriously looked at. Law and Order SVU for example, shows how voilence against women is often of a sexual nature, it says, "This is normal ... and sexy!" Maybe that's too extreme for some, the let's look at Boston Public. The "Was it Consent?" episode is coming up and there should be protests. There in an ON CAMERA rape and then the girl models exactly what shouldn't happen with lines like, "I wasn't raped!" and implies that the woman trying to help her is the one ruining her life. I know of more unreported rapes that I want to think about. Know why? At the time everyone I've asked so doesn't want to be a rape victim they don't even want to consider it. Maybe this girl was just modeling behavior up to a point, ie: When a famous man invites you to a hotel room you go! But thinking that any woman asks to be raped is buying into a lot of BS rhetoric. She was amazingly strong to come forward.

Aside from the media in general, I hope that my generation will teach their daughters as well as their sons to fight. I know that mine will know how to.

Great topic! I talk about it on my blog. An excerpt:

Why don’t people complain that men in really tight pants that outline their private bits (or men in low-slung pants that show their cute ass, or men in open shirts that reveal that sexy man-cleavage) are just inviting rape by showing us their assets so explicitly? Why, because women aren’t “driven by their animal natures” like men are (and of course, men couldn’t possibly be raped by other men!), so men don’t need to be careful of how they dress?

Yet more bullshit from the egregious gender stereotype department, and I am not buying it. Nobody is entitled to rip away the power of an individual. And especially not like that. It doesn’t matter if the victim is a mentally-ill, eighteen year-old Lolita wearing stilettos, a tight bra top, and an ass-baring mini-skirt, dammit: if you force her to have sex, that. is. RAPE. End of story.

Thanks for writing that.

Six months ago I went to a friend's 21st party. There was a bar tab, we took our own alcohol, and we went on a pub crawl after that, so we all got fairly intoxicated... I ended up walking to the nightride alone, only I never made it. I didn't feel too good so I sat down on a bench on the way, and ended up passing out there. When I came too, my head was on someone's lap. I looked down and my fly was undone. Then I felt his hand down the back of my pants. (Sorry for being explicit - I won't go into any more detail than that).

I was scared that he might get violent if I suddenly jumped up and started yelling or trying to run away... I was worried that if I scared him, he'd do something impulsive or stupid (like try to shut me up or prevent me from going to the police). So I just lay there, pretending to be passed out for a little while longer, thinking, "what the $*#@ do I do now?!" After a while, still pretending to be only semi-conscious and possibly drug $*#@ed, I mumbled, "is that you Matt?" (hoping that this guy would think that I was expecting friends). He didn't fall for it, though - I guess he must have been watching me for a while, because he knew for sure that I was alone.

We went around in circles for so long... (me asking where my friends were, him telling me to go with him to his place, me asking where my friends were again, him verbalising his peverted fantasies to me)... he got up and tried to make me give him head. I pushed him away, but kept pretending to be out of it and not understanding what was going on, so that he wouldn't flip out.

Eventually, I just couldn't take the cold anymore. (I know that sounds a strange thing to say, but it was FREEZING and this had been going on for HOURS by this stage; I was wearing jeans and a short-sleeved shirt). I was going to die of hypothermia if I stayed out there, so I agreed to go with him back to his place. (I had no idea how he intended to get us there, but I figured I could make a break for it on the way). So he took me to a TAXI!! He was so convinced that I was spaced enough not to get the driver to take us straight to the cops, he flagged a $*#@ing taxi!

Well, he was wrong... though I didn't get the driver to take us to the police, I did jump out when we stopped at red lights, and didn't stop running until I reached a busy street.

I didn't go to the cops because I wasn't even sure that what had happened constituted "rape". Now of course I know that it did. But at the time I was so confused and uncertain and scared that I just wanted to forget it had ever happened. I just felt so STUPID for getting trashed and passing out in a park like that, too - it was so CLICHED - "asking for trouble", what did I EXPECT, putting myself in that kind of situation?

Well to be honest, I didn't expect THAT! I was so naive, I trusted people so much, and I guess I was too self-assured, too - I just didn't think that it would happen like that. But I knew that in a courtroom I'd be ripped to shreds, and so I never reported it.

A few days later, I was looking in the mirror, and I saw dark fingerprint bruises on the back of my legs, in perfect hand-grip formation. I flipped out - the bruises didn't fit in with what I thought had happened that night; and I realised that he must have done a lot more to me before I came to.

I ended up getting tested for a whole range of STDs soon after that, but then had to wait for over three months before I got conclusive results back for HIV and some other diseases. (Everything came back negative - thank $*#@).

I've told three people about what happened to me now... but you know, the whole rape thing has been so mystified that everyone's too scared to talk about it. They either respond woefully inadequately, change the topic, or treat it flippantly because they're too scared to face it as a reality. Their responses were, respectively:

* "$*#@! Are you okay?"
* "Oh... are you okay? Yeah anyway, so yeah, as I was saying..." and
* "I wouldn't mind being raped... as long as it wasn't by a guy!" (

So... I don't know what my point is, after writing all that, but I guess by writing a blow-by-blow account of a rape situation that doesn't conform to the whole "drugged-with-roofies-hit-over-the-head-with-a-baseball-bat-and-dragged-into-a-remote-warehouse-raped-and-left-to-die" stereotype, I just hope that people will learn something about rape and reality.

I'll post with my response later, but I wanted to offer sympathy and horror to X. I know that I've put myself in plenty of risky situations, thinking that it would never happen to me, and not wanting to have to live my life in fear. Even if you do make less than ideal choices about where to sleep, you are NEVER "asking" to be raped, and you hold no fault in that situation WHATSOEVER. That should be obvious, but I know it helps to have another person express it...

I haven't responded to my own question yet, but I thought I should point out the reason why rape victims/survivors need to be believed instead of questioned: They are reporting a crime, not committing one. To put forth the cliche, if a man is mugged or randomly assaulted, nobody questions the victim in that case...instead the police immediately start looking for the perpetrator of the crime. Nobody asks a mugging victim if he was intoxicated at the time or wearing something inviting the crime. The guilt should be assigned to the guilty parties, and not to those suffering from the crime.

Also, to my knowledge, in the Bryant case, the accuser did not rush to the media with the story.

I have comment on Kerri's comment. First, I've never known a mugging victim to be unwilling to give a name. Second, I've never known someone to accuse a famous person and make national news for being mugged. Those two things do make it different. And I agree with someone who commented on my blog that it is the NEWS MEDIA who creates this awful situation as much as the people involved. If they didn't find it necessary to report this stuff on national news, there would never be a question that a woman was accusing a famous person in order to get her 15 minutes of fame.

The whole publicity problem could be solved by adopting the british rule that the details of a criminal investigation can not be published until after there is a verdict. Second, one of the people should be convicted of something. Bringing a false complaint of rape should carry the same punishment as rape.

If the details of criminal investigations aren't allowed to be released before the verdict, the police will quickly start to get away with a lot of crap that we can at least pretend to prevent now. I wonder how British investigations are really conducted, and if the general public has any idea...

Crimes can be reported, just that the victim and perp are not identified. If the police comit a crime, that is reportd, but you wont see the name of the officer until he/she has been found guilty.

A man was just arrested for allegedly offering to kill Bryant's accuser for $3 million.

On my old blog I commented that when women made rape allegations they're often either blamed for the rape or accused of lying. However, the men who accused pedophile priests of molesting them when they were boys were believed without question. I think there is a rape double standard.

Finally got my response up here. It's a little jumbled.

"Bringing a false complaint of rape should carry the same punishment as rape."

OK, but only if you can absolutely prove that the complaint was false. If the accused gets off (so to speak) because of reasonable doubt, no deal.

And, of course, the woman who accused him, before heading off to house arrest for a couple of weeks gets to have at least three unsupervised hours to hold a loaded gun on the previously accused, and, of course, has a large assortment of objects available to shove into his all his orifices and for beating the living shit out of him. Seems fair.

Just a reminder that rape victims are not always adult females. Keep in mind that children and adult males can and are also raped. If your child confided in you that s/he had been assaulted or rapes, would you question that, or get the police to find the attacker? Does this consideration change anyone's responses?

A few weeks ago a rape happened on my university campus, and since women's safety has been a major media issue due to the recent serial killings, the rape made it into the headlines. On the one hand, I'm glad that people are no longer ignoring that rape happens on our campus. Still, I can't imagine how this must have hurt the victim. When she went to the police, I'm sure she didn't imagine that every single person in school would be talking about her personal trauma, even if they aren't aware it was her. The article in no way incriminated her and was written perfectly objectively. How do we decide when rape-reporting becomes exploitive and not just informational? I personally believe that victims should break through the silence and shame, but if she wasn't ready to do that, the article pretty much forced her to.

There was one other thing about the article that bothered me... it said "alleged rape." I realize that reporters have to say that until someone has been convicted. Still, if she went to the police, doctors have examined her and verified that she was raped. Thus it's not truly alleged, is it? The suspect might be alleged, but if someone has reported to the police within 72 hours, they can determine if there was a rape, consensual sex, or no sex at all.

Sara, I agree about the alleged thing. An examination is not conclusive anyway. Rape is rape, end of story. When talking about the suspect, then it would be correct to say "alleged rapist" until the court proves one way or the other. Well, that is if one respects the judgment of the justice system. We know that rapists often walk free.

I want you to know, as a preface, that I am strongly in the corner of women who are raped. No "buts" no "howevers" are forthcoming. I have had, in the past, had girlfriends and friends who felt comfortable about telling me about their sexual assaults. I had one girlfriend who was raped when she cheated on me. I was furious at her betrayal for cheating but supportive of her about the sexual assault. When I was in my early teen years someone attempted to molest me. It failed, but I received little in the way of support from my family. Later when I was in college I was accused of rape. I was caught up in the P.C. hysteria that swept the U.S in the late 80's and 90's.
I was raised by a very strong woman and in my home women's rights were never an issue. Why? Because my mother is the president of the corporation she works for. There was never a question as to whether a woman could/should be able to do "men's" work. She DID "men's" work and that kind of settled the issue. Also, my mother is a recovered alcoholic. I mention this with PRIDE not SHAME. Why do I mention this? It's simple, alcoholism affects all walks of life. White, black, male, female, Jew, and Gentile are all vulnerable. At our dinner table, where many came to visit, all people were welcome and the content of your character and your maturity was what counted. I made this preface to my introduction to let you know what my background was.
I was falsely accused of rape. It took me YEARS to recover financially and emotionally. In some ways I will never heal. Not being melodramatic. It's been almost a decade and I still cant stop thinking about it. I mean ... just about EVERY DAMN DAY I think about it. I feel as though I should explain that a bit, and you will find that every man who has been through this acts this way. He feels he must explain why some sociopath ripped up his life. People can "understand" why a woman is raped, but not much has been done to educate our public about life-rape and the mentality of the person who does it. There is no punishment for people who do this. I know there are rape victims/survivors who are going to read this and think I am not being supportive of them. Not true. If the name of the Accuser is kept private due to this crime being so horrible, shouldn't the name of the accused be protected. Even if cleared his "life" is over. There is no deterence for women who do this CRIME to us. None. The women who do this spit on real rape victims/survivors and hide behind their courage. They need to be locked up to send a clear message. If anyone wants to respond to me privately they can E-mail me.
I hope this letter is accepted as what it is: support for real victim/survivors and plea for understanding to us men who have had to go through a false-allegation.

Steven, you're still trying to equate the death threat (all rapes are death threats), battery, preganacy & disease risk, pain, possible hospitalization, surgery, scarring and months and years of physical and emotional recovery of rape with libel. This tells me you're not quite clear on what rape really is. I confess, your saying that you were "falsely accused" while simultaneously remaining unable to see the difference between the extremity or rape and the far lesser crime of libel makes we wonder, first, if the accusation really was "false", and what the details of the story really are.

And, even if you were falsely accused, what you've gone through still pales in comparison to rape. Take all of the impact on your life from the "false accusation" and quadruple it, at least, and you might begin to understand the difference.

Ok Kerri, I admit I got pretty angry about yoiur response, but that's ok. I will respond logically as I can.
----First, the personal attack and dismissal of what happened to me is kinda cheap. I don't have to agree with you to have what happened to me be validated. I bet you don't make a woman prove to you what happened to give her the benefit of the doubt, but you do with men. Interesting.
----Equating a false allegation of rape to libel is just silly. If you are falsely accused of rape your life is destroyed, even if you are aquitted. How so? I will lay it out:
-------Socially: you are outcast. You lose friends and people who don't know you judge you. This has larger inplications: Would YOU hire somoene accused of rape Kerri? Would you date him? Would you want your friend to date him? If you were a professor, would you write a recommendation for an interneship, for a master's program, for a job? Isn't networking in college a critical thing for getting the best jobs?
-------Economically: You will most likely lose your job. Then you are going to lose the place you live. You go into debt defending yourself while the accuser is given free advice and preperation (advocates), free legal help (ADA's), and supoort groups (state sponsored and private - while none exist for men - look it up). Most Job fields are interconnected and losing your job due to an accusation of rape pretty much has ended your future. You just became an economic second hand citizen. F-O-R-E-V-E-R. Are you in college Kerri? If what happened to me is no big deal : quit now. Pay for someone else to go. Since its no big deal. And even 5-10 years down the road when you don't have a job that can pay the bills and a man cannont support the family he has he is still paying. "libel" ... yeah ... right.
-----Psychologically: having someone who you trusted betray you is betrayal is betrayal. You are scared for life from a betrayal like that. You realize that at any time any person you date can destroy whole sections of your life for no good reason. With no repercussions to the false-accuser. You are left alone due to social hatred (which is how it should be for real rapists!) of accused sexual predator.
------Legally: Libel?! lol, ok, Kerri you aren't a legal major are you? Saying someone is a bad person is libel (on various levels). LIBEL does not throw you in jail, lose you your job, make you a social outcast, psychologically scar you from trusting 1/2 the population on the planet, nor does it make you register on a sexual predator registry, choose who you can date and exclude you from future jobs. Libel Kerri? Stop minimalizing.
And let's deal with something "LIBEL" (man you crack me up) doesn't do. When a man is accused of rape and goes to PRISON he is RAPED over and over. Let's assume he is innocent. (I know Kerri's first reaction is "it doesn't happen that often" but that ignores something important: if even one woman being raped is wrong, isn't even one man being falsely accused wrong?) He gets traded for cigarrettes and the usual routine (do some research before spouting off) is to let an HIV infected prisoner rape him before he gets out. (Kerri, does this happen in libel cases? Just wondering.) Then to get out he has to confess. Little know bit of law here that most parole boards wont let a man out untill he confesses, even if he has to stay for years after his sentence (does that happen in libel Kerri?) Then IF/when he gets out he has to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life. And life outside is full of menial jobs, limited prospects and little sympathy. Even after what happened to me I believe we need many of these in place to protect rape victim/survivors. But there are NO PUNISHMENTS for those who falsely accuse. None.
Women I know feel comfortable telling me about their sexual assault. Must be that I am open to their pain and try to empathize. Because I am not biased nor prejudiced. Because I do not choose "sides/truth/lies" based on gender. Do men who are falsely accused feel comfortable talking to you, Kerri? Do you consider yourself prejudiced? Biased? All fair questions. Oh, and lets address this really whacked idea you brought up: You would like a "a few details of my story". Gee Kerri, you seem so open to hearing me out with out prejudice and bias (NOT!). But let's examine this a bit closer. Are you asking a person to relive what I went through? Are you asking me to open up so you can pick apart and disect what happened to me? Want to revictimize the victim over and over to break me down or make me get "validation" from someone who won't believe me no matter what I say? Why does that sound so familiar? Hmmmmmmm.
I am truly sorry for what happened to you Kerri. Whoever violated your trust and body had no right. All sarcasm aside. I mean that. But to compare a false-allegation of rape to "libel" ... well its not exactly a good mix. After I was falsely accused it took me almost a DECADE to put my life back together. I still dont have a degree and when telling my story I often get a reaction like I got from you. Society punishes rapists. It should. We need protection. I have a wife and I want her protected. The problem is that there is no deterrent from a woman who falsely accuses. And you shouldn't support that kind of person. She spits in the face of rape victim/survivors. Kerri, read up on what happens to so many men whose only mistake was dating the wrong person. Learn both sides. I have. Don't let the hate-mongers tell you 1/2 a story and by doing so do nothing to solve it. I want to solve the problems of rape and false-allegations of it. DO you?

I typed Kerri instead of Kell. My mistake. I apologize, I was pretty steamed at KELL's response and was scrolling down to reply and made a mistake.

Truth? You're tripping my radar. I think you need to resolve this somehow, whether that involves a counselor or a lawyer, or both.

And, a false accusation literally is "libel". If you feel that wronged, you best bet is to pursue a civil case against your accuser (You know, like the survivors of Nicole Brown had to do.)

And, you still don't get what rape is. Your situation, however bad, is not even close.

Kell,
Ok, I should pursue a civil case. With what money? With me not having a college degree I (but paying back college loans) I am rather limited in what I can do for money. My job options are rather limited. And what I will say next should trip your radar: I was found guilty only by my college. ***I*** went to the local ADA and gave HER the accuser's story (from the police report) and told here I would make a statement without the presence of a lawyer. She had never heard of such a thing. She read the accusers statement and then told me that the story was full of contradictions (one statement would nullify another) and rather implausible. This is a woman who puts rapists in jail for a living. It was a risky move, but I was desperate. She told me that even if I was cleared that it would show that I was arrested every time somone did a back ground check.
----Regular libel is not the same thing as a false allegation. One puts you in J-A-I-L. Something you singularly seem to ignore. I had someone try to molest me when I was younger. I notice you seem to have ignored that too. Is it ok when it happens to a man?
----being raped in prison, as many men are (which prompted the new legislation: Prison Rape Elimination Act. Which even its supporters say won't end most of the rapes. You seem to have little sympathy for those victims.
---- Being raped is wrong. I keep saying it but you can't seem to get past your anger to see that. I DIDN'T DO IT. Neither did YOU falsely accuse me. A man's whole life is destroyed by a false allegation. Equating it to something like "defamation of character" or "libel" is silly. Life-rape is a destructive and malicious attack on a person's life. And since no one seems to want to prosecute women who do this due to the PC movement it gets trivialized. So men's only recourse is to go to civil court. The false accuser never faces jail. It's just a unfair as making a woman who is raped have to sue a man who did it while having no punishment for him.
----Kell, I am truly trying to reach out to you. I also want educate you on false allegations. You sound very angry and full of rage at what happened to you. Your feelings are totally valid. To you it seems inconprehensible that a woman would lie. You didn't. But women who do this aren't like YOU. Their wiring is wrong. They border on sociopathic tendencies, seeing men like TV characters or some other reality disconnect that makes men like me just objects to accomplish some goal. Just like for me I dont see myself raping a woman. To me there is nothing that makes it "ok" or "asked for". But to a rapist he uses some whacked out self-justification or disassociation to allow him to do it without remorse.
Kell, you have to try to see that woman who falsely accuse have nothing in common with you. And like me I have nothing in common with a rapist's thinking. If you marginalize false accusations made about men, and attack us with your words, and say "you can't understand MY pain, its different, but yours is nothing" you will never get most men to listen. It lumps us innocent guys into the same catagory. Have I ever had a situation where I decided 1/2 way through a sexual act to tell a woman to stop and she just ignored ME and kept going? Have I had a woman who thought "no" was "cute" and to be overcome?. Yep, but I doubt she even once considered what she did "rape". And she certainly didn't worry about going to jail. Why is that? I have not been held down and violently raped. I probably cannot truly imagine it. But I can empathize with the woman, try to listen, be supportive. Why can't you be supportive of men who had their lives ripped up by a woman who did what my false accuser? "Men don't get it" is just unfair. I am the one listening. I am trying to empathize.
Kell, I hope you can heal from what happened to you. Attacking men who want to listen wont help. Women who falsely accuse are not like you. I am not like the man who raped you. Have any men been supportive of you? Many women have been supportive of me, because they know me. Just give this some thought.

it's really good that people are being open and honest about their opinions, but personal attacks shouldn't figure into this discussion... it's unfair to/from all parties, because no one can defend themselves in "real time," and no one else wants to have to take sides.
it sounds like both steven and kell have gone through significant trauma in their lives, and playing the "mine is worse than yours" game doesn't really get anywhere...

Thanks Megan!!!

Differences of opinion can occur without personal attacks. Please keep it respectful, all.

A follow up on the Kobe Bryant rape case, re: female defense attorney dealing underhanded attacks to plaintiff, read about it on CNN.com here. I wanted to post this as a comment so people would see/read/think about it, but people should respond in the msg board as per April's requests. Something to consider: Is the female lawyer "betraying her gender," practicing bad law, or just being the best defense attorney she could be? How would you feel as a female defense attorney in a high profile rape case?

I would like to first apologize for not becoming aware of the posting guidelines.

Secondly, I have noted with great interest the nature of the material chosen to be removed from my original post.

Could you kindly direct me to the message board, as well as the posting guidelines?

Thank you and best regards,

Jeff

I edited what seemed repetitious.

guidelines

messageboard

Feel free to start a new thread on the bb if the subject does not fit into an existing one.

I am sorry. If she did not say no, if she gave no clue as to being an unwilling participant, then it was not rape, it was statutory rape, which under the law is not the same. I won't say she deserved it, because she didn't deserve all the bad feelings I know she went through. I know because my first time was a similar incident, although with only one man. I looked at it as the ultimate learning expirience, and did not repeat the actions that led me to that path, for make no mistakes it was 100% my actions which put me in that position. When the law starts going down the slippery slope to men having to mindread, then abuse of the system occurs, like what is currently happening in CA now. A man was convicted of rape because his girlfriend said, during consensual sex, "It's getting late". He took that as "hurry up and finish", so he did. The next day he was arrested. Women need to be required to LOUD AND CLEAR object when they do not want sex. Otherwise, the men may be guilty of lack of attention, but certainly not rape.

I was listening to NPR in the car yesterday and there was a story about how more women are coming forward in the priest abuse cases now. One of the female victims interviewed said that women seem to be more likely to seek therepy and men to seek litigation. When asked why she said that men are never asked in court about whether they were "asking for it" where they always ask the women, even if they were raped as children. It was broadcast around 8:30 AM yesterday, I'll have to try and find the transcript online. Just some food for thought.

I agree completely -- that in the event a credible woman makes allegations of this nature that are true, and her story is believable -- then she should be believed. The perp should then stand trial and upon being found guilty of committing the crime with which he was charged....he should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. And more.

However, if a competent investigator has reasonable and probable grounds to believe that the allegations are completely false and entirely fabricated, then s/he should be able to say to the complainant "we're having some trouble with parts of your story and would like for you to come in to go over them again...". If she is either found to have fabricated the entire matter and/or confesses that it was all a lie then so should she too should stand trial. Upon being found guilty of committing the crime with which she was charged....she too should be punished to the fullest extent of the law – then handed a penalty at least as severe as what the guilty man would have received. And more.

This, my friends, is equality.

Finally, I would like to point out that if this happened more frequently, it would surely deter others from coming forward with false allegations. What would be the end result if false allegations could be eliminated completely?

Only the guilty bastards would hang for their heinous crimes. And I’m all for that.

Thank you for the opportunity to offer my point of view.

For those who may be interested, I've moved [with a little help from my friends] my original post to the message board.

Have a great weekend.

In response to Jeff:

Perhaps you might want to read an article called
"Confessions of a Date Rapist" by Jack M. You can find it here.

I am not sure what your situation was, but many men have been socialized to not realize a woman's bounderies. This article was used in a Gender & Sexualities class that I took this term, which I feel should be mandatory. My perspective as a feminist has shifted since this class offered a well-rounded discussion of gender (read: woman _and_ men) politics.

Not trying to perpetuate accusation. It must be an extremely sensitive subject for you.