I'm genderqueer. I've recently realized that and am coming to terms with it (the link to my livejournal is above, I've been working on my most recent challenge there).

The quote reminds me of an argument I've heard so many times, which is about FTM (female to male) transsexuals gaining male power. Which is bunk. Even if someone 'passes' 'well' he is going to retain a lot of insecurity, fear of not passing and being expelled from that arena of male priviledge.

I have a friend who is in college in Vermont, I'm not sure where. Apparently her lesbian community is shunning all the butch women and telling them that they really are FTM and why don't they just go through SRS? Which is also bunk.

Doublebunk.

I've been reading for my gender studies class and I found an article about the hjiras in India - transwomen in their culture. It made sure to point out that there was no FTM equivilant in that culture, and it suddenly clicked to me - in a culture where women have specific at-home roles, society won't allow them to gain a higher status than the one they're in. It seems very controlled for me.

So it's interesting that this society is less. . . Strict. . . About that. That while transpeople are persecuted, it's more equally. And the persecution based on gaining privledge comes from within another marginalized community.

WARNING: Big long rant with Bad language!
[several off-topic elements edited out]

OK, I'm just going to come right out and say it. I'm sexist. I think men are a genetic adaptation of an older parthenogenetic race of Women. I think that either-or thinking is an element of patriarchy and patriarchy is an unnatural social order. I think Mother Nature prefers Her own gender. Deal with it, boys.

On the subject of Gender, I think either/or is dysfunctional thinking. The spectrum of who we are sexually, physically, emotionally is too diverse to limit it with outdated patristic dichotomies. Gender has nothing to do with whether I want to fuck someone. When this culture gets past its sexual adolesence, we'll learn that it's not what you are doing, it's who you are doing it with; not what you are doing but why you are doing it. Sex is not just about a penis and a vagina. It's about lips and tongues and fingers and whatever combination of genitalia ANY arrangement of one or more consenting adult humans happens to be blessed with.

Do genderqueers threaten Women -hell no! Patriarchy threatens Women. We are living in a state of Gender Apartheid, and the last thing we need to do is exclude anyone who wants to be on our side. If a man wants to be a woman, it takes nothing away from me. I consider it a compliment. If a woman wants to be male, it is certainly understandable. I'd prefer that we stop defining our personalities by genitalia. Why is it any less feminine to drive a truck than to work as a typist? Why is it any less sexy for a guy to wear eyeliner, or earrings or lipstick? What I do, what I wear, how I look, whom I fuck says NOTHING about who I am.

I am too complex to be limited by a few dysfunctional labels that have little to do with being human. Am I Straight? Am I Gay? Different people have expressed different ideas on the subject. My own opinion is that I am simply sexual, and I am attracted to many people of every variety. Why should I play a role assigned by other people. My way is more fun, and I believe, more functional.

If we remember who we are, the issues dissolve. It's us against them, whether a particular woman wants to be part of 'us" or not. Porn will exist, so legalize it and tax it to pay for women's programs. They won't pay us more until we refuse to work for less. We ae 52% of the population. We can be the policy makers if we don't get stuck on the details.

Women, Genderqueers, Gay men, men of color, all need to share one mantra; "Equal Protection Under the Law".
If we all repeat it, expect it, demand it it will happen. We are the majority. It is time to act like it. We can hammer out the details later.

SPRHGRL said "So it's interesting that this society is less. . . Strict. . . About that. That while transpeople are persecuted, it's more equally." I don't think this is true. Most transitioned FTMs receive a lot less day to day persecution than transitioned MTFs because FTMs often blend in more seamlessly as "men." The murders of trans people that have been occuring at a rate of at least one a month for the last several years also target MTFs disproportionally. Why is that? I think the obvious answer is that those who are targeted for persecution are being persecuted for looking genderqueer, rather than for being transgendered. In other words, the more one queers gender, the more likely one will be targeted.

This, to me, points back to the original question. Feminism has attempted to get us beyond gender for a long time --- pointing out the many ways in which gender is learned, socially-constructed and ultimately created by the patriarchy to be a tool for patriarchy. Genderqueer theory really has the same goal, though perhaps for somewhat different reasons---where feminism is focused on eradicating gender prescription in order to liberate women from a state of oppression, genderqueerness seeks to eradicate gender prescription in order to liberate the individual from a state of oppression.

Does this mean that genderqueer and feminism should have the same goals? Absolutely. The progress made by genderqueers is progress made possible by feminist principles. Do the two have the same goals however? No. I think that, in practice, the vast majority of genderqueer individuals do not recognize the debt owed to feminism and furthermore do not relate to a goal of elevating the status of *women* because a) they will say they are not "women" and b) they are struggling for the end to gender oppression for both biological males and females.

As I see it, they are two sides of one coin, both trying to pay the same bill. Where genderqueer may err on the side of promoting gender by playing with it and multiplying it into many genders, feminism often errs on the side of promoting gender by celebrating "woman" thereby reinforcing the gender system.

The original question also merges transgender with genderqueer, though they can represent very different concepts. Even the trans/genderqueer communities are not always clear on the distinction. Yet there is a distinction. Some do focus a great deal on masculine vs. feminine, "am I a man or a woman?" Those with this focus are working within the patriarchally-defined gender binary. On the other hand, some are saying "What is gender anyway? Is it anything to be taken seriously? Why not bend the rules?" They are working outside that binary...toying with it, not usually ignoring it altogether, trying to find another way...much like radical feminism.

These two ideologies are very different, and although I could honestly say that (in my experience) more people who have the former focus call themselves "transgendered" while more people with the latter focus call themselves "genderqueer", it would be inaccurate to simply attach these labels to these ideologies. Individuals do not always self-identify as transgender or genderqueer based on their ideologies.

I honestly believe that genderqueer ideology and feminism are, as I said, two sides of one coin and I think that they will eventually be able to see that and work together. I think it is likely that gender transition will become obsolete...not that people will not choose to modify their bodies in ways that make them feel more comfortable but that these modifications will no longer signify (or be indicated by) gender.

Ty (a genderqueer FTM)

I haven't answered yet, but thought i'd give links for some sites that discuss genderqueer a litte bit for those who are not very familar with this:

definitions
genderf*ck
gender in our society

I've read the politics, before - however I am concerned with one key perspective that is missing from this conversation: The Racial Perspective.

Are we talking about White Feminist Politics? Are we even beginning to understand how Euro-centered Gender Queer Politics are?

I am always offended when there is a general conversation or general post on Feminism and Gender Queerism - the readers, like me, are left with our colonized imaginations on the specifics of the politics. We default to privilige and realize that we are talking about White Feminist and White Gender Queer Politics - those are not my issues. I am a Person of Color who Refuses to be Marginalized by the Marginalized. Understand?

Gender is NOT color blind, nor should it be color blind.

Let us talk specifically and from our own Perspective, but let's not assume that because gender is/can be fluid - that the Gender Experience/Politics experience are going to be the same between People Of Color and White People.

My two cents.

~ Philip Castro ~

[Off-topic comment on patriarchy edited out]
-----As far a the Transgendered crowd. First off, it seems every group has to have a subtitle and if I don't mention them all somehow I have offended someone. Well, whatever. I admit my ignorance on much. Transgendered issues being something I don't know a ton about. If a person, whatever they were born genetically, wants to dress, be surgically altered, or in some fashion change genders, okey dokey. Works for me. I don't get it, but, hey, they pay taxes, same as me. What is done in the home, like Morgaine Swann said, ahhhh ... that's the spice that makes us all happy.

[further off-topic reading recommendations edited out]

This is a response to some of the later posts, after mine:

[EDITED]

If you were to go outside right now weearing nail polish, you'd be laughed at, dispraraged, possibly beaten. That's one act of the patriarchy---keeping us all "in line". A line defined by them.

If you stay home and take care of your kids, while your wife works, *most* other guys will not respect you for that. They'll poke fun, laugh at you behind your back, ask who gets f*cked at the end of the day. That, too, is patriarchy keeping you in line.

As someone who lives as a man, now, in the real world, I can say with absolute certainty that being a man does pay off. It pays off in my paycheck, it pays off in how often I get told that my "worth" is in my physical attributes, it pays off in how much easier it is, day to day, to move in the world.

[EDITED]

And Philip---I'd love to know how you see POC feminists interacting with Genderqueer or Transgender POC. You are right that I, at least, am speaking from a mostly white feminist perspective and you're definitely right that POC issues within the genderqueer/trans communities are very different at times. The most glaring example I've ever heard of this is hearing that a transgendered POC was told by a POC group that "transition is a white thing." That means that trans POC are up against either a) finding other options to actualize their gender, that do not involve transition or b) fighting their POC communities accusations that they're "acting white." That's *on top of* having to deal with typical transgender issues like "Do you want to physically transition? How do you tell your family? How do you ask people to use the right pronouns." Those POC issues are not ones *I* had to face, so that is a clear difference.

Ty,
Good to hear from you too. I appreciate it. I disagree with you, but that's all well and good. May I rebut?
[EDITED]
Second, well, the whole nail polish thing. Ok, I admit I am more traditional and would make fun of my buddy for wearing it too. See, but that's the thing TY, I think men and women are wired differently. Not good or bad, just different. But, there are 2 different things I speak of. Allow me to explain: The first is business relationships. Women and men want to earn a wage doing a job. Be treated like workers with a little mutual respect. The second thing, which goes more to what you were speaking of is INTERPERSONAL relationships. I would like, and this is just my preference - hey, variety is the spice of life, I would like a more traditional woman at home. Now I know the hairs on the back of the head of many who read this will go up. Hang tight. Read on. I would like, my preference again, a feminine woman. If she is a "young turk - take no prisoners - makes 5 times what I do" go getter at work - cool. At home I would like a feminine woman who wants me to love her. I cook, she cleans up. She cooks, I clean up. A partner. Etc etc.
On the stay-at-home-dad thing. I think most men are raised to think of themselves to be a provider. Why is that so bad? I want to be a stable and nurturing and fiscally responsible part of my family. If a guy stays at home, and some do, great. And I have friends who do. Most of our guy friends don't crap all over him. It's not "a little odd". His wife makes 3 times what he does. It's THIER business. Maybe where you live it's different. But me and mine (most of my "traditional male" friends are pragmatic too) have no problem.
Also, toooooooooo many problems get blamed on this "patriarchy" thing. Now, I would agree with you that some old values are shitty and though diminished are still there. However, this "patriarchy" is often a bogey-man or "they" or "them" thing. Anyone who doesn't agree with a group can be labeled. As Americans we do this because looking inward and finding fault is unacceptable.
I know I will get some flak for what I said. Fair enough. I am man enough to take it. Men and women, different, not better or worse, just different. Ya know what? That's ok. If my wife were more manly ... errr .. we wouldn't BE man and wife.
Peace
Steven

My response is here on my blog.

Lengthy off-topic discussions could be taken to the messageboard.

Okay, try here. I had to enable the archives. oops.

Philip, thanks for bringing up the race issue. It's an important one, and the discussion about trans and feminist doesn't need to be only about white trans and white feminist issues. The problem, of course, is that the majority of the people on this particular site are white - and we can't presume to speak to the ways these issues change when faced by people of color.

So, consider this an invitation to add your unique perspective to this and other discussions here. You'll find most of us ready to listen.

Not having any real personal experience of this issue, I kind of took Ty's comments and related them to what I see and read in the mainstream media, here.

April,
I noticed when I posted a Men's site you EDITED it. But not Morgaine's. Her's IS on topic, but I am hoping we are not having "selective editing" [censorship] here. I may tend to wander in how I write, but I have noticed others doing the same without the
[edited out]
It's your blog. But if you aren't even handed, don't be mad if I point it out.
Friendly reminder
Steven B
is THIS going to be [edited out] too?