Although I don't have the answer to your question, I can give you my opinion and a couple examples.

Think about this way--if (insert male's name here) did not know that you are feminist, do you believe (he) would react in the same way? I don't think so. I personally think that (he) knows what buttons to push and is taking full advantage of those opportunities. It seems like a male ego thing.

Here's an example very similar. I have a friend who has recently become open with his homosexuality. Before he (came out of the closet), no one made homosexual comments, jokes, etc. around him. Now that he has embraced his sexuality, I have heard numerous remarks made to him. For example, "you just can't find the right girl, that's why you are guy", "oh, that explains why you were in choir in high school and college", "so THAT'S why you by your clothes at Banana Republic", and my favorite, "so is your brother gay too?"

So, I think these men in your life are just taking the opportunity to stick it you where it hurts. You probably have many different adjectives that describe you, and more than likely, there will be some people who criticize those roles you have taken. Honestly, I think it is immaturity on the male's part, and they feel like they have to "protect" their manhood. Maybe if they became more educated about feminism, they would realize it really isn't such a bad thing after all. Hope this helps!
--Michelle

The post is up and I have a new template going on tonight...here.

an except from my response:
"i guess that the best way to deal is to simply react as intelligently as possible. hell, if you're a feminist, chances are you've got a decent balance of life experience & sage advice from those in your support network & can hold your own. in the end, you are't gonna make someone believe something they don't want to, unless the sources of information which they identify as credible support your ideas. you can't waste your time trying to prove something to someone who'll never believe a single thing you say."

here> is the whole entry. enjoy!

In response to Kerri's Blog:

I do not suspect my brother or father of doing anything more than trying to unnerve me. I know them well, and I know they tease me about many things. And although their way of teasing is often inappropriate to be sure, I do not think that makes full fledged male chauvinists maybe, just part-time members of that particular club. I also do no think my silent response to their joking is any indication of my stance as a feminist. Although I do not respond to their taunting, they are made well aware of my feelings about, well, everything, including feminism. When we are having serious discussions, I speak my mind, I am just not sure responding to inappropriate jokes is the best way to get through to them. They know I disapporve of the joking--silence is not always compliance, in my family it makes quite an impact.
I am not saying that silence is always the best response, that is actually part of the reason I wrote the prompt. If I react angrily every time someone makes an offcolor joke, those people start to take me less seriously, or joke on me more, but I also understand the importance of voicing one's opinion and demonstrating the severity of the issues being joked about. I just wonder the best way to make people aware and yet also make sure they continue to take you seriously.
Oh, about jokes on women, versus jokes on blacks/racism/etc. This is actually something I have spoken about in great depth with many feminist comrades. In my undergraduate newspaper there was a humor column which frequently poked fun at the women's studies department or major or at the feminist groups on campus. I always wondered how they got away with it. IF they ever did such a thing to the black studies dept/maj or any other department, they would have been kicked off campus. How is it that it is no longer acceptable (as well it shouldn't be) to make racist comments or jokes (well not in the public forum at least) but sexism is still A-OKay, even on a mass scale.

Stacie, to answer your question in the comment, I'd have to say that it is precisely the complicity of silence that allows sexist comics and jokes to continue. Other communities would not tolerate that kind of garbage for a minute- why should women? I'll talk about this more on my page later.

Basically, I completely agree with Kerri, but I have my own anecdotes and my way of dealing with the situations, which you can read here. I might write more later, but something is better than nothing! Really great topic, by the way.

OMfriggingG...I totally know what you mean and I hate it too. I think they're testing us to see how upset we can get. Often I blow it off and walk away or counter with really traditional things like "So, it must be hard seeing your wife work since you can't provide enough, eh?" Would that be a verbal kick in the nutts?

Thanks for the topic!

I wouldn't go so far as to say ignoring this sort of behavior is equal to complicity, but I don't think silence achieves anything. If who cares about you acts in a way that angers you, chances are they'll respond if you make it clear how much it upsets you. Do that in whatever way makes the most sense to you. Silence may tell people you disapprove, but it doesn't tell them why they should change.

My theories on why people freak out around feminists and how to deal with it: on my blog.

I've been thinking about this post for a couple of days. And, I tried to treat it as a serious post, But, I cant.

I find it offensive.

How can you publicly berate your father and brother and expect them not to say things back to you? I think you should remove this post, take your family bashing out of it and try to repost it without personal attacks.

I do not think I am, as you say, berating or bashing my father and brother. I am not saying anything untrue about them, I love them and I think they are wonderful, but even wonderful people have bad habits. I think you are going a bit far to say feminists are assholes for not appreciating negative energy focued in their direction.

You comment in your journal about Lenee complaining about highschool boys being high school boys, that's like saying we complain about men being men because they rape. I do not think it is ok to tolerate male chauvinism and misogyny, if that makes me an asshole, so be it.

I know I am not perfect, and as you say I am aware my poop stinks, but I do not think being annoyed by misogyny is one of my faults, even if the people who are displaying that particular trait happen to be related to me.

Hrm, Karl, I didn't really see that much personal attack in the original question. I mean, there are things that sound like swipes at the character of Stacie's family, but she also points out the wonderfulness of them. My impression is that what comes across as insulting was intended as humor (of course, only Stacie can actually clarify her intentions).

Which actually gets to the heart of this issue - when someone is being funny and it hurts you, is it funny anymore? That's why I tend to react to anti-feminist jokes with humor - assuming that the person isn't intentionally being an ass. I think we get in more heated, nonproductive arguments than we need to when we don't allow that others' intentions might be different than the message we receive.

That said, on the off chance anyone reading this IS the sort of person to make anti-feminist (or other offensive) cracks, you also have a responsibility when you've offended someone to explain your intention and consider your behavior in the future.

The injudicious words of high school boys are not comparable to rape. And that type of exaggeration is only worthy of a Jerry Springer show. And please don't put words in my mouth, I didn't call anyone an asshole. Nobody likes negative energy, including us males whose idea's about feminism are not in sync with the 'angry grrrl' school of modern feminism. What we've ended up with in this post and some of it's replies is just misandry disguised as a critique of misogyny. I don't have any intention of defending any man who deliberately says hurtful things. It wouldn't matter what they are talking about, feminists or the size of someone's nose. I don't participate in gossip, or tell jokes. My ideas about feminism don't include exaggeration, or the disguise of female sexism. Maybe that makes me out of place here. But, the level of rhetoric which makes a statement of disagreement equal to the 'hatred of women' is, I believe, harmful to the cause of true equality.

I intend to make sure my daughter is able to do anything a man can do, that she is not harmed by the true misogynists (green river killer etc), to see that she gets the benefits of title nine, equality in finance, housing, etc, and I expect she will grow up to be a successful woman. My wife is my equal, not simply because I say it, but just because she is. We are both well educated, software engineers, she makes about 10% more than I do. We have roughly the same IQ, we both completed nanowrimo novels. "We Both" is the key to our equality. And we come to that equality from different paths. She worked with NOW, I ran a punk rock record label and distro. etc.

And, that's feminism. That's Equality.

It's not the over blown rhetoric which equates a sibling argument to the hatred of women. And, if that makes me unwelcome in the angry grrrl club, so be it.

You make it sound like anger is not a valid emotion. Subversity...you have published things on your own blog that were very hurtful and disrespectful about/to your wife in the past. If you're going to diss Stacie for her post, at least acknowledge that you have aired your own family garbage.

Yes, Kerri, I have made the mistake of posting things I shouldn't have, and later removed them. Take my word for it, dont dis the people you love in public. It's not nice.

You know "Subversity," if you want to convince us to play nice you shouldn't bash us in your journal. I share my experiences, not to expose myself to criticism, but because it might help me or someone else in some way. Like knowing they aren't alone in being uncomfortable or not taking people's attacks with a smile. If women only saying nice things is your idea of feminism, you can count me out.

Sounds to me like your upset that I'm not playing nice. Feminism wont change misogyny by engaging in misandry. You posted a laundry list of your relatives and friends failings. That deserved to be challenged just as much as the men's sexist behavior.

I read the topic, and it didn't sit right with me, then I read a few replies and felt disgusted. It was an invitation to everyone to air their dirt about the men in their lives.

As I've mentioned before, it's a mistake I'm familiar with, but I'm not going to shut up and hope nobody notices just because I made the same mistake.

This group went through a familial misandry moment because of that post and I hope everyone can see that. If I haven't been as erudite and conciliatory as you'd like, then ask me about it again in a week or so and I'll discuss it in a politer tone.

Either way, this is my last comment in this vein, as it's not the conversation I wish to be having. I had originally planned to do a post about motivations, expectations and social norms. Maybe I'll go back and write it as I think it's a worthy topic.

It's one thing to disagree with people and quite another to talk about them in your journal and link their names. I can write about my experiences with some authority, and I gave my partner credit where I thought it was due. You said "frat boys" when you wrote about my post when I was careful to write "person or persons" -- I don't know anyone in a frat and I didn't specify gender. I don't appreciate you linking my name because what you wrote about my post was innacurate. When I have a bone to pick with people, and have to do it in my blog, I don't name them because I don't really know them, plus they might not appreciate it. Get what I'm hinting at? You can have your opinions, and I'll respect them, until you make it personal.

Brigitte, it's pretty standard blog convention to link people's names from your blog when you mention their opinions, whether you agree or disagree. Karl may have wrongly inferred things from your post that weren't there, but his linking you shouldn't be construed as a personal attack.

Second, I think a lot of the response to Karl's posts are a response more to his language than his content, and I'm disappointed (both in the responses and the language). He called out something that I do believe is relevant - a lot of what we (Karl included) said in response to this question was very gut-level, very angry, and very rhetorical. And I wonder why we're that angry? Why did we respond that way? I suspect that our reasons are very much analogous to those of people who react strongly against feminism, and that we might better understand them by examining ourselves.

Uplifting rant over. ;)

"What happened to you? You used to be beautiful."
~~ Jackie Brown ~~

I find myself saddened as I think back to the exchange on this weeks We Have Brains topic. Has feminism really sunk as low as that exchange or was that simply an exclusionary sect driving out a non member? I've learned a whole lot reading the posts. The responses to the topic, the response to my objections, and the subsequent posts. I think feminism has descended into a form of tribal warfare which will destroy it's effectiveness. Some of the tribes spend their time attacking men, and then wonder why men don't want anything to do with feminism. Even women are starting to have a backlash against these feminists.
[edited for length]

Subversity, really I'm tired of you lowering this post to the level of male bashing, I don't think that is what it is at all, and it certainly was not the point of the post.

Originally, I was thinking about adding in women to the topic, but I thought it changed the dynamic of the post rather profoundly as there are different reasons to men's and women's aversion to feminism. At that moment I was more interested in hearing people's responses to why some males have such an aversion to it, and how to react to it.

I don't think anyone here was doing as you say and just all out male bashing. I have tons of men in my life who are wonderful and appreciate and respect the fact I am a feminist, the topic though was more on my curiosity that some men can get weird and awkward (to put it lightly) around feminists.

The world is full of personal experience, it is based on it, you seem to be upset that in this arena we all shared our personal experiences, that it is some how wrong to make the political personal, but the personal IS political, and what reason did you give for our not sharing our experiences, because it was in poor taste. I was once told protest was in poor taste because it disrupts. Well isn't that the point of protest. And why shouldn't I call out the men in my life for making negative comments about women and feminists, it is worth their being called out for. I don't care if they happen to be related to me, I won't accept such behavior among any of my aquaintance.

I don't hate men, I don't care for times when men are male chauvinists or misogynists. I don't know what else to tell you.

And I get dodgily Mars and Venus about the topic here. Because the personal isn't always political.

I am currently taking a class listed as "Crim 301: Contemporary Issues". This means that the prof has a great deal of discretion as to what she opts to teach about. And the current subject is pornography and prostitution.

To that end, she showed the class a video. One of the "Killing Us Softly" series. "Killing Us Softly 3", I believe. It's by Jean Kilbourne, and more info can be found here.

I am sure that some others here have seen it. She raises some interesting questions using anecdotes. I don't agree with many of her theories, and would like to see some statistics aside from anecdotes, but that isn't really the point. The point is instead that she frequently interjects healthy doses of man-bashing to get laughs from her audience. I did not venture to try this experiment, but I will wager that analagous woman-bashing comments in that class would have been met with some harsh disapproval.

And not too long ago, when I was eating with a vegetarian, I had a standard burger containing animal flesh while she opted for a non-flesh meal. And she asked, "How's the carcass?". "Good." "So it doesn't taste like death, then?" And yet, she was most annoyed when I replied, "Hey, if we're not supposed to eat them, why are animals made out of meat?" Of course, the fact she was female in this case is just a coincidence. I've had similar exchanges with others.

So hey, feminists do it. Non-feminists do it. Men do it. Women do it. Vegetarians do it. Non-vegetarians do it. Straight edge vs not. Smokers vs not. And so on and so on and so on. This means that the question of why men do this to feminists is a bad question. Especially because, as April points out, women also do it to feminists. The question itself makes assumptions (that this is a feminist-only thing, that only men do it) that are in and of themselves sexist. A better question is to ask why we get snippy with people we like when they express viewpoints we are not in perfect agreement with, or when they act in ways that express the same. And I'll kick out my own theory on this: We try to change people we like to bring them more in line with our own views (IE: to make them more like ourselves).

And the answer there really isn't to hope that they just shut the hell up. That won't solve anything. The answer is probably to set up a dialogue. A proper dialogue involves both parties going in with the understanding that they may be shown to be wrong. IE: With both parties willing to be flexible in their viewpoints based on evidence provided. Besides, it's a great excuse for you to proselytize to your nearest and dearest.

Also, keep in mind that with the issue of feminism, a lot of the reaction to it is a reaction to the presented face of feminism, which comes from those most extreme (and who I would say have gone beyond the pale). I don't know if that covers you or not, but assuming you are reasonable, defusing such myths might be a priority in ensuring that the discussion goes smoothly.

AAAAAGH! is anyone else hugely offended by the last comment to this topic? sorry, but I don't think reducing feminism to "cuteness" is acceptable.

I'm not sure how my perspective matches up with other males in America, but I will try to present my opinion of the situation. I am not a feminist, nor am I a chauvinist. I have a very healthy relationship with my girlfriend, who is herself a strong, confident woman, and should be seeing as how she was raised by one.
I think what makes my relationship with my girlfriend work so well is that we see each other as equals. We both have our strengths and our shortcomings, but we manage to balance each other out. That is, afterall, what I believe to be our purpose in life.....yin and yang, light and dark, etc...
My point is, I feel that many men (including myself) sometimes see feminists as always being on the offensive...and naturally, men immediately become defensive. Not to protect their "manhood", but simply as a reaction. Unfortunately, I feel that the term "feminist" has a negative connotation in most males' minds.
And as far as we're on the topic of "nice guys turning misogynistic around feminists", we should at least take a second to think about how we men already feel about ourselves (in relation to women) due to the media. Next time you watch TV, take a look at the commercials and you'll notice that whenever the ad portrays a couple (husband and wife, boy and girl, etc.) it is always the male that is made to look foolish. Why? Because we're used to taking those sort of jabs. That's how we've worked since we were children. (There are also other hidden messages in such advertisements, such as marketers' knowledge that even though we live in a society of dual income families, the women is still typically the unofficial financial decision maker of the household, and they therefore do not wish to alienate their target audience.)
Although I do not know your brother and father, I would be willing to bet that, in their minds, they are completely joking with you and would in no way mean the things that they are saying. They are doing it merely to push your buttons. I know it is a bit sadistic, but that is how we are wired. As boys and young men, we make by friends via this behavior. And, interestingly enough, once we have our circle of friends, the teasing and joking only increase. For men, a cleverly placed joke or jab is a term of endearment. I doubt that your father and brother would do it if they didn't think you could handle it. To them, their teasing could be the ultimate compliment to you: They might feel that you are so secure with your opinions and beliefs that they can test you occasionally, just because they know what buttons to push.
This is just my observation, but I hope that it helps make sense.

Tommy