I am pro-sex. Please, who isn't? I am pro-women's natural bodies. I am a feminist.

I am against pornography. I am against prostitution. I am against commodification of sex and commodification of the body.

But I am relentlessly besieged by women who call themselves feminist and women who don't for my views. I am told I need to wake up and join the third wave.

I usually take strong offense to the term pro-sex: it sets up a ridiculous dialectic that immediately puts anyone who makes social commentary on sexual mores into the "other", the "anti-sex" category. I also associate strongly with the concept that while men seem to be able to be seperated from their sexuality, women cannot - anything a woman says is evaluated, it would seem, alongside her worth as a sexual being. This is why we often require draconian influences in the workplace to eliminate any trace of sexual conduct, misconduct, or transaction. I think these careful policies are not thought policing or freedom-strangling, but stopping points that help us realize how we interact with each other.

Sexuality issues are necessarily a part of my feminism. But I have to make others aware that women, and thus doubly feminists, are evaluated and monitored with respect to sex in all things, even where it may not be appropriate.

I'm working on a response, but right now I can say "what she said". I agree with Kim wholeheartedly and more.

Finally got my first draft of a post up here

I think we're heading for a consensus here...

i was going to comment on this, but 'the absent student' said everything i wanted to say. and she actually made complete sense doing so. and i thank her for that.

feminism and sexuality fit together however the individual feels they should. just like feminism and love, feminism and drug use, or feminism and volunteering.

i would say that if one is 'confused' because someone else disagrees, then one must be prepared to never have a clear thought again. if one wishes to enjoy pornography or a strip club, so be it, i say.

however, i will say this, i find it disingenuous to call those who do not like porn "self-proclaimed feminists", and then two sentences later to call oneself, who happens to like porn, simply "a feminist". we are all self-proclaimed, and if we desired to be of one mind on every subject, i'm fairly certain that patriarchy is still around.

i guess i did comment. sort of.
[no offense intentionally implied. if taken, i apologize.]

I don't know why we are getting all in a snit over the term "self-proclaimed". All that means is that these feminists I speak of term themselves that, and that it is not a label I am assigning to them, but one they've taken on themselves. Chill on it.

When someone uses the term "self-proclaimed", the writer generally means that the s/he thinks the person is not really what they are proclaiming themselves to be, that they are "fake". As noted by Ryan, if you did not mean it that way you would have called yourself a "self-proclaimed feminist" and not just a "feminist" or vice-versa. To backup my claims for usage of that term check out:

A-infos noting "Even when self-proclaimed anarchists (or even if real ones)"

Elizabeth Likely Photographed With Self-Proclaimed Prophet At Party in September"...self-proclaimed prophet Brian David Mitchell..." (Does anyone REALLY think he was a prophet?)

U.S. Seizes Self-Proclaimed Baghdad Mayor"U.S. forces on Sunday arrested an Iraqi exile who had proclaimed himself Baghdad's mayor, saying he was exerting authority he didn't have."

GRC SucksAfter Attrition.org [negation, shame, slander] did a good job at exposing self proclaimed security experts,"

First Hand Knowledge: A Review'For all his many claims of crucial work for the CIA or his self-proclaimed status as an "elite CIA operative," Robert Morrow has been unable to produce so much as a stub from the CIA headquarters' parking lot, a cancelled check, or indeed any sort of documentary proof that he ever did any kind of work for the CIA, the U.S. Army, or anyone else in intelligence.'

And just continue searching on Google. You won't find any exceptions to the term being used as an insult and not as a generalization.

Vic, if I said, "I'm a self-proclaimed feminist", I am being redundant, because I am proclaiming something. I think you guys are missing a good part of the question by needlessly paying attention to semantics. Seriously.

Look at the questions without the agenda or defensiveness and see what is actually being asked.

I did look at the questions. I answered them. I think I proved my point about "self-proclaimed" being meant as an insult 100% of the time it is used with my last response. I am not being defensive, I am being honest. The term "self-proclaimed" IS insulting, and if you meant it as an insult, own up to it. If you did not, apologize. It's as simple as that. When someone disagrees with you, it does not automatically make them defensive. I am defending my point, which I think was well made. And since 100% of the people responding your post also agree, perhaps it is time for you to admit you are wrong and stop insulting us. The phrase "getting all in a snit" is also insulting as well as defensive. I am not in a snit, I am responding to a point.

One more point. All of us responded to more than the "self-proclaimed" comment. We did answer the rest of your questions. It would be nice to see what you thought of the rest of the posts also.

I've posted my response here and have not gotten to read anyone's responses from here that they have posted on their own blogs.

I'm not going to apologize because of the way others have misinterpreted what I said.

I find it very frustrating that you posted a thoughtful set of questions on sexuality and how it relates to feminism, and then turned around and basically accused all anti-porn activists of probably having unhealthy relationships. I shouldn't have to defend my personal relationship when having a political/social discussion on the merits or negatives to porn, but I guess that in that sense you answered your own question: women who are radical are always going to be considered in respect to their sexual lives.

For the record, I didn't even notice the "self-proclaimed" the first few reads through this post. In retrospect, and upon reading your entry on the subject, you clearly have a negative opinion of women who dislike and speak out against porn.

You may not know, but many feminists who feel porn is degrading and exploitative do not advocate for illegalizing it. Most of us actually believe that would be counterproductive. Hiding the misogyny of porn and the treatment of women as interchangeable chattel under the cover of surreptitious illegal transaction wouldn't help anyone. I personally don't understand how someone can like Playboy and "proclaim" themselves a "feminist", but it seems obvious that you might feel the same way about someone like me.

We're both feminists, and we're both bringing important thoughts to the table in this discussion. I've seen the vitriol and disrespect fly over and over between women who should be simply listening and working together. It's very frustrating. Nonetheless I come to sites like this because I hope we're all still listening to each other, and not tuning out that which we don't agree with. I'm sorry if this sounds overly tart.

This is an in-general comment.

I think that when referring to something on someone's blog, it is more helpful to comment directly there rather than here, because the tendency is to take things out of context (for instance, my speculation of the various reasons just got turned into me accusing anti-porn activists of having unhealthy relationships, which I did not say)...and I think that some people might just read remarks here and get punchy with comments without going back to read the original context of something. I'm not saying that I've seen it done on this post, but it has been done in the past, and does not help matters.

Or better yet, go with the blank slate approach when reading an item. Do not go into it with an agenda where one is seeking to support or argue a point. Just read. Then go back and reread to make sure you didn't misread something.

I apologize for bringing what you said in your blog, Kerri, over here. I posted a full repsonse there, I just reacted heatedly without thinking. I apologize. It seemed germane to the discussion at the time.

no problem-- I just think we all have better luck keeping our stories straight by commenting right on a person's blog or journal, because the text is right there and there aren't cut & paste/memory mishaps.

I posted my own response on my blog, which addresses a lot of the side points made and I hope the intent of the question.

Here's something that bothers me - when I get into conversations on this subjects, we act like we have this massive history of feminists who consume sex vs. feminists who really hate consumption of sex, We don't, not really. There is some history, but a lot of it comes down to individual people on both sides of this question made to feel like they're part of some sub-normal group for their feelings about sex. As Vic pointed out, the use of "self-proclaimed" is more or less the same as "so called" - it implies that, whatever you think about yourself, you're not actually that. But in Kerri's defense, I come up against a lot of women whose opinions about porn and sex are essentially about confining others' choices based on their own discomfort. If that doesn't make you a self-proclaimed-but-not-really feminist, I don't know what does. It just doesn't mean EVERY anti-porn feminist falls into the same category.

I like some sex products, I don't like others. But that doesn't matter, because ultimately, as a feminist, my responsibility is to defend my ability to choose what pleases me and yours to choose what pleases you.

I wanted to say something about choice - I fear I am overextending my voice, or my claim to this space a bit and please tell me if I am.

I am a little defensive about this subject because for every person who has said to me, "enjoying or using porn is a personal choice, you don't have to if you don't want to", I have heard from ten more people "all men like porn. if you want to be with men, you have to like it too" or "why don't you just get over it, you're going to have to to live in this world, sex is natural and so is porn."

For someone who is emotionally hurt, uncomfortable, or finds porn triggering in some way, this is tantamount to saying, you have no choice. This is why I'm so quick to defend people who don't like porn. For those of us who find that, in addition to being hurt when they see it, also see misogyny inherent most porn, it's doubly troubling to see the hold that supposedly okay porn has on our sexual lives.

So long as there is a girl trying to face that her boyfriend watches porn, and that hurts her, and she has nowhere to turn (I at least had feminists to turn to, or so I thought, back when I first saw porn) I want be there defending her choice, her feelings.

I know no one here has said I don't have a choice. But I wanted to explain why get so defensive and jump to the conclusion, sometimes, that people really do want me to accept porn when I am staunchly unwilling to do so.

If you did not mean "self-proclaimed feminist" as an insult, then I can accept that. I wish that you could accept that it was TAKEN as an insult because the term "self-proclaimed" is used as one most of the time. If I used a term "not as an insult" that was normally used as one and did not mean it, I would apologize in a heartbeat because I offended people without meaning to.

The question was exclusive, so I couldn't answer it, but, the dabate I can answer. My response is here.

Kerri,
I do not understand how you are getting upset with people for not responding to your topic and going off on a tangent when you "have not gotten to read anyone's responses from here that they have posted on their own blogs." That is precicely where they responded to your questions, and very eloquently at that. You also went on to say in your post at your blog (sorry I am not responding there, but I do say that is where I am getting my info) that you think people didn't go to your links and in a way barrate them for it, but in fact, you are upset they didn't read what you had to say, without reading what they have to say. How can you respond to people's responses without reading them?
Also for one who is accusing everyone else of being defensive, I feel like you are the one being most defensive. You seem to be, as vic said, unhappy about our disagreement with your position.
I do not think that disagreement is bad, I find it rather productive, if done constructively. I am not a pro-sex feminist, but that doesn't make me either a prude or a whore. I find pornography to be most problematic in its mainstream form. I do not think my feminism either influences or limits my sexuality.

my response is up. an excerpt:
"In our culture, public sexuality and sex culture have traditionally belonged to men. This isn't unique - our culture was formed and shaped by men, remember? Many things are "theirs." But as a result of this, the sex industry has long been geared towards men. Thus for a feminist coming in right now, it looks an awful lot like sex culture is inherently sexist. (The stereotype that women aren't visually aroused, or that they can't separate sex and emotions, further divides women and sex culture because it keeps us from being consumers. Bah!) Rather than dismissing it as therefore bad, many women have tried to enter that world in a way that empowers both female performers and female consumers. This seems like the best solution to me - make sex culture a friendly place for those of us without penises."
also, i got killed by the endore crash, so ingenue is nothing but a blog now. comment and give me love/support for the rebuilding process.

i said i had nothing really to say.

so much for that. post is here

I hadn't read all the responses in their entirety...I've looked at pieces of them, but really haven't had the time. I've been following the threads I've linked to from the post on my blog.

"I do not think that disagreement is bad, I find it rather productive, if done constructively."
"Constructive" is the key word there. Can we all be constructive rather than making judgment calls such as assuming that someone who enjoys porn is "male-centric" or something?

So, this definition of "pro-sex" is something I haven't heavily considered. Is a pro-sex person inherently opposed to those who are anti-porn? Can you be both? I'm curious what you all think.

I think of myself as a pro-sex feminist not because of my consumption of sex product X or Y (cause honestly, I don't consume much) but because of my support of sexual choice. I don't think this is inherently counter to a personal distaste for and avoidance of porn.

I think people are reacting to the term "self-proclaimed" as if you had used the term "so-called." I can see your logic in the use of this term, Kerri, and I think it's accurate. I believe you when you say you intended no insult.

I'll probably comment on this post later, but I'll have to really think about it because I have mixed feelings about pornography...even nudity...as it relates to feminism. And I have some feelings about "limiting sexuality." But I am not sure if I can articulate them precisely.

April-- thanks...you got EXACTLY what is meant by "pro-sex":
"I think of myself as a pro-sex feminist not because of my consumption of sex product X or Y (cause honestly, I don't consume much) but because of my support of sexual choice. I don't think this is inherently counter to a personal distaste for and avoidance of porn."

Sexual choice.

Overall, I gotta say, no matter what I do or don't agree with, this post really did was is intended by this site, it evoked a discussion, and a hell of one. I still disagree stridently with the "self-proclaimed" remark and have more about it on my blog here.

And the responses were phenomenal! Ryan's, Kim's, the absent student. It's great to know I'm not alone in my opinions.

But in any case I judge the success of a post by the number of responses, and this has got to rank up there with the highest number of responses!

I already did a porn entry a few weeks ago--I pretty much exhausted what I was willing to say, and April covered the rest of what I thought concerning power and sex.

It's here:
link

I just had a question about the "self-proclaimed" issue.

Would it be less insulting if it were phrased "self-identified?" I used "self-proclaimed" too, but it *never* occured to me that it would read as "so called." I just thought, "self-proclaimed" = taking claim of a title. And, if a person says that they are something, then in my mind... they are.

Maybe, I'm just wierd.

I consider myself a pro-sex feminist, if I have to put a label on my opinions. However, I don't think that anyone who is against porn is an "anti-sex" feminist. I wasn’t always sure if I was a feminist. I agree with many feminist viewpoints, but many feminists who I have met disagree with me about porn and sex work. I thought that because of these differences in opinion I couldn’t identify myself as a feminist. That was before I heard of pro-sex feminists.

I don’t find anything wrong with porn per se. I oppose porn that depicts violence or shows women being degraded. Unfortunately, a lot of the porn on the market is sexist. If more porn was produced by feminist women, that would not be the case. When I hear that porn is "just for men," I am extremely offended. The argument that porn is for men only is a sexist one because it suggests that women have no use for sexual material. That's one more denial of women's sexuality; in this culture, libidinous women are considered aberrant or perverted, but men (as long as they're heterosexual) are considered perfectly normal if they're horny as rabbits. And yes, I do use porn and enjoy it.

I have considered modeling for nude photographs, and will probably do it. I find nothing demeaning about expressing my sexuality by showing my body. I am comfortable with my body and I feel that it is beautiful. I think that erotic photographs should be respected as art. And I don't consider it exploiting my body for men because as a lesbian, I don't really care one way or another if men find me attractive.

The main problem I have with the sex industry is the fact that in our patriarchal society, sex workers are treated badly and disdained. In the book "Cunt, a Declaration of Independence," (by Inga Muscio) the author explains that prostitutes were revered before the rise of Christianity. They were considered holy and had temples devoted to them. They certainly weren't beaten, raped, or vilified.

There is definitely a need for a more size-positive attitude in the sex industry, but the anorexic culture doesn’t come from porn. It comes from the diet industry, an exploitative racket that makes money by telling women that we are worthless if we are "too" heavy. The diet industry stems from the patriarchy's oppression of women and classism. Before it was fashionable to be thin, large women were considered the most beautiful because fat signified wealth.

Racism, classism, homophobia, and sexism are the
causes of our extremely oppressive culture, not porn and suggestive clothing. The abuses that occur in the sex industry would not exist if we were living in a matriarchal society. I have found other feminists who share my views and I have come to understand that I don’t have to agree with all feminists in order to call myself one.

I consider myself a pro-sex feminist, if I have to put a label on my opinions. However, I don't think that anyone who is against porn is an "anti-sex" feminist. I wasn’t always sure if I was a feminist. I agree with many feminist viewpoints, but many feminists who I have met disagree with me about porn and sex work. I thought that because of these differences in opinion I couldn’t identify myself as a feminist. That was before I heard of pro-sex feminists.

I don’t find anything wrong with porn per se. I oppose porn that depicts violence or shows women being degraded. Unfortunately, a lot of the porn on the market is sexist. If more porn was produced by feminist women, that would not be the case. When I hear that porn is "just for men," I am extremely offended. The argument that porn is for men only is a sexist one because it suggests that women have no use for sexual material. That's one more denial of women's sexuality; in this culture, libidinous women are considered aberrant or perverted, but men (as long as they're heterosexual) are considered perfectly normal if they're horny as rabbits. And yes, I do use porn and enjoy it.

I have considered modeling for nude photographs, and will probably do it. I find nothing demeaning about expressing my sexuality by showing my body. I am comfortable with my body and I feel that it is beautiful. I think that erotic photographs should be respected as art. And I don't consider it exploiting my body for men because as a lesbian, I don't really care one way or another if men find me attractive.

The main problem I have with the sex industry is the fact that in our patriarchal society, sex workers are treated badly and disdained. In the book "Cunt, a Declaration of Independence," (by Inga Muscio) the author explains that prostitutes were revered before the rise of Christianity. They were considered holy and had temples devoted to them. They certainly weren't beaten, raped, or vilified.

There is definitely a need for a more size-positive attitude in the sex industry, but the anorexic culture doesn’t come from porn. It comes from the diet industry, an exploitative racket that makes money by telling women that we are worthless if we are "too" heavy. The diet industry stems from the patriarchy's oppression of women and classism. Before it was fashionable to be thin, large women were considered the most beautiful because fat signified wealth.

Racism, classism, homophobia, and sexism are the
causes of our extremely oppressive culture, not porn and suggestive clothing. The abuses that occur in the sex industry would not exist if we were living in a matriarchal society. I have found other feminists who share my views and I have come to understand that I don’t have to agree with all feminists in order to call myself one.