I have been getting and reading peoples comments on a variety of subjects for a few months without feeling particularly compelled to add my own thoughts. However, with regard to rape fantasies I have some simple thoughts to share. I am a therapist who works in a forensic mental health setting with adolescents with sexual behavior problems (this is a nice way of saying adolecent male sex offenders). Part of my job includes analyzing the content of the sexual fantasies of various clients. Rape Fantasies are considered deviant sexual fantasies (versus healthy sexual fantasies). They fall in the deviant fantasy category because they do not meet the critera for healthy sexual fantasy. Meaning they do not include consent, a shared relationship, caring about the feelings, thoughts and experience of the other person. I didn't realize rape was condoned, at least not explicitly. What is going on for women who have rape fanstaies? Perhaps my thoughts on this subject are a bit skewed having heard my clients share stories of being forced and forcing other to engage in sexual activities. There is nothing erotic about rape. Perhaps looking at the devestating impact and the reality of rape will help some restructure their fantasy material.

I post (with chagrin) that the ONLY scenario that reliably enables me to reach orgasm -- and it is almost exclusively through fantasy that I do achieve orgasm -- is force/rape/humiliation of a teen-aged, virginal version of myself. (For the most part, my fantasies are also set in remote time.) Examining this psychologically, I have always assumed it was a function of being 'touched inappropriately' at a very young age (4 or 5) by an older male relative; it was stimulating, but I also knew it was completely wrong. Other similar incidents took place as I grew older, and I suppose I have internalized the notion that sex is bad and therefore *I* cannot be party to it. But if I am forced, then I cannot be held responsible for enjoying it. I am now 50 years old and have had sex with far too many men (I am arguably a sex & love addict). (For the potential interest of the psychologists or psychiatrists reading: I suffer from Borderline Personality Disorder, as well as a couple of other syndromes.) Only ONCE have I been 'present' in the room with the man I loved and who was loving me when I came. As a feminist, as a woman, I wish it were different. But being 2 1/2 years recovered from drug and alcohol addiction, I have learned to try to accept myself and my life the way it is, and not expend too much energy in useless resentments. I am grateful never to have had to endure the horrific genuine act of rape. I do hope that eventually the cycles of abuse and shame lessen and subside and we all enjoy our own bodies only in the ways we wish and with whom we wish.

I think there's alot going on in rape fantasies. It's scary when we need, in any context, to feel something that has an abusive quality - and I think there's definitely a component of that here.

I also think there's a piece that just comes from the fact that we live in a society where sex is "dirty". It's bad, or we're bad for liking it, wanting it, or initiating. We can't clear some part of our brains to get to our libidos directly because we've internalized these judgements. So to some degree, being forced (in our imaginations) allows us to release into the experience in a way that we couldn't if we thought we were a party to the activity. If you're forced, you're not responsible for the deed. The heavier the guilt, the more forceful or awful the fantasy has to be to convince some part of our brains to let us feel something.

That part is just conjecture. I read my own words and look back at the comment before mine and cringe. I know what she's talking about. What explains the need to feel humiliated in order to be aroused? Is it just strong emphasis on the lack of consent, or is there a direct connection between the two? Do women who have very good mental health experience this? I couldn't tell you(!) but I do want to be very clear about one thing (and it's been said before) : The feeling of being forced or humiliated or anything is *only* ever gratifying in one's imagination. When you actually don't want someone inside you, there is *nothing* good about having it happen. I haven't been raped either (at least not in any accessible memories) but I do suffer from ptsd and I've had my interest cut out on me during sex, in a way that can feel like a bit of old trauma. When it happens, the boyfriend *must pull out and leave me alone* at that moment. In instances where I haven't been clear enough fast enough, the time between is some of the most dreadful I've experienced. Without any erotic edge. at all.

Back to the idea about having to clear one's "concience" before getting off: I wonder if any of the other women who have to create scenarios involving force to get any gratification also have this odd problem I have. When you want to fantasize about someone, do you have to figure out *every* detail of how it is that you're able to be with this person? Do you each have current significant others? What happened to them? Have they died? (If so, has enough time passed or is this really crass?) Were you trapped on an elevator and just couldn't control yourselves? Was the ball and chain just giving you trouble anyway? ...do you have to work all this stuff out, or can you just imagine him and enjoy yourself. (I'm the worst, btw: I have to know what I ate that morning and whether or not I did the dishes if he's coming here.)

One other thing comes to mind. Think of violence in entertainment. Not stuff other people watch, but something you've gotten a rush from. Like in Princess Bride when farmboy's buddy finally avenges his father. In real life, there's nothing good about being on the receiving end of violence, but it's exciting in the movies. Of course we identify with the person hitting, not getting hit. And I notice sometimes, in fantasy (not about the abuse stuff, but in other ways, like verbal arguments - I know: I'm a loser. we *talk*) that I sometimes have the other person playing out my own feelings or frustrations. (Ex: in real life I want to be with them, but in the fantasy they're trying to talk me into it and I'm telling them how we just can't.) So I wonder: could there be some component of that here? Is there some violence in us, either connected to the sexual or absorbed as such, that we may even be acting out? Doesn't feel like it, but then it took lots of therapy before I caught on to the role playing I was doing in my geek dreams.

I agree with Amy. In a society where a lot of women are taught that sex is bad and wrong, to give into sexual desires can sometimes seem impossible. In a state where you can fantasize that you're not in control, you can subconsciously place the blame off of yourself and still be sexual.

I think that these fantasies are healthy and normal, especially if you have grown up in an environment of sexual repression. I think "rape fantasy" is a misnomer for a more commmon form of sexual expression that can be freeing and enjoyable.

It's unfortunate that there's not another name for this, though, because the very core of "rape" is that it's unwanted and forced. These fantasies don't jive with that definition in its most literal sense and they deserve their own title and definition that can still highlight rape as a serious crime, a violation that no one wants because by definition rape is unwanted.

Hum... I can speak as someone who is reasonably mentally healthy when it comes to sex. I've never been raped or molested, or even been in a bad relationship or had any sex I was ambivalent about. I’ve always been risk-averse when it comes to relationships and sex, and I tend to be attracted to nice, responsible guys.

And, I have non-consent fantasies. They're usually more like ritual or aggressive sex than rape. I don't get turned on by violence, just by the idea of losing control. Both of the men I've been in long-term relationships with have had the same types of fantasies. We’ll (we’d) take turns being a little aggressive with each other, and it’s a huge turn-on.

I think that as women, we feel that we always need to be in control of our sexual feelings and actions, because the potential consequences are so great. The idea of letting go of that is always going to be hot. I think that men in our generation are the same way to some extent, because men are finally being held responsibility for their sexual actions (for their biological children, in particular).

Yes. Often. But I'm never the victim. I'm the perpetrator. The victim is always a man.

I have always thought it patently absurd that academics (among others) treat the female rape fantasy as something hot and subversive. What, may I ask, is so subversive about a woman who fantsises about being raped by a man?? To me, women who proudly proclaim that they've had a fantasy in which they were raped by a man are not "bad girls" but goody-goodies, and their indulgence of the fantasy is more compliant than radical.

In this culture, there is much evidence that women have rape fantasies because rape-like sex acts in films, video clips, etc are the only images of "sex" women actually get to see. People who point to male masochism conveniently gloss over the fact that more women fantsise about being "forced" to have sex than men. Why? Because the culture encourages us to eroticise our own subordination. Given this, is it really that surprising that so few men have rape fantasies, and so many women do?

Because I've never bought into the whole "glorfiy-the-dominant-male-and-his-gigantic-penis" myth, I've never had a fantasy where I've been raped. I HAVE, however, had fantasies where I have been the rapist, and my victims (all men) were completely subservient to my every whim. Because rape fantsies, like rape in the real world, aren't really about sex--they're about power. And being subordinated can feel sexy. So can being dominant.

Many people have a tendency to de-politicise rape fantasies, prefacing them with statements like, "oh, but it's just a fantasy." But it's never just a fantasy. ALL rape fantasies involve someone being in a dominant role and someone being in a subordinate role, and I believe your preference--even if it's an unconscious one--says a lot about you as a person.

As a final thought, you might want to think about why fantasy scenarios based on sexual equality are so rare.

A lot of thought-provoking answers here - thank you.

Artemis said that one's fantasies reveal important aspects of our own power issues and asked for us to consider why egalitarian fantasies aren't more common - both provocative. Interestingly, power equality is the most important feature of my own fantasies, to the extent that even the power differential of gender is a turn-off; I like only explicitly consensual, explicitly monogamous, same-sex stories. And I don't say that as a way of saying, "look, I'm so progressive," but rather that it's revealing of my own extreme discomfort with power differentials in couplings and panic of the potential for harm in an unequal pairing.

I'm not sure I have an answer for why this seems to be a relatively less common reaction to being socialized in a sexist culture and internalizing its messages about sexuality. I'd have to think about it a bit more.

I suggest that people who are baffled by rape fantasies read "Come Hither: a Commonsense Guide to Kinky Sex" by Dr. Gloria Brame (http://gloria-brame.com/domidea/comea.htm), or some other introductory books on power dynamics and sexuality.

I am bemused by some of the assumptions that are made around this delicate topic. For instance artemis says:

"As a final thought, you might want to think about why fantasy scenarios based on sexual equality are so rare."

Are they rare? I have fantasies based on sexual equality my lovers all the time. I also love to struggle against a lover with all my strength, and LOSE! I love to wrestle, and I like the idea of someone being so overwhelmed by desire for me that he or she just takes me. I find that very hot, and I am unapologetic about that. I don't think that is necessarily evidence of some mental illness or PTSD.

I would like to encourage all women to explore their fantasies consensually, without letting anyone, male or female, make you feel guilty. If there is danger of harm to yourself or another, that is where you draw a boundary. There is so much to be gained by opening up to your erotic power as women, and the path to that place of power is not always the one that patriarchal society has laid out for you. If people are feelign ambivalent about the vontent of their fantasies, read up! There is a lot of good information out there.

zen

Let's call them non-consensual fantasies, because I've never heard of a woman imagining being forced by someone unattractive. More often than not, the non-consensual part is meant to assauage the guilt a woman would feel if she cheated on her partner.

Kate was talking about the pathology of these fantasies. It is not uncommon for a person with a traumatic sexual imprint from childhood, or an adult who has been abused, to be unable to climax without an element of force or violence in their fantasies, if not their sexual activity. There's often a form of dissociation in the fantasies as well - they'll imagine it happening to other people. Better to fantasize than to act out, so I think they should be encouraged to talk about their fantasies and not feel guilty.

We don't hear about the egalitarian brand of fantasy because no one feels guilty about those. I think we need to take into account that a fantasy like this has more to do with anxiety about sexual situations than about a desire to hurt or be hurt. There's some debate as to whether a sexual imprint can be changed. I don't believe that it can. Therapies that claim to redirect sexual impulses have a notoriously low degree of success, even with the most motivated subjects.

Here's something to consider: What were you doing when you had your first orgasm? How does it compare to what you fantasize about? In most cases, there will be a correlation.

i disagree with so much of what has been said here. i'd love to have an actual 'e-discussion' about this topic. the assumption that fantasies of non consent MUST have anything to do with guilt or harm or hidden trauma is misguided, and would tend to blame and/or victimize the fantasizer, burdening her with pathology. so much of the commentary here has been blatantly anti-feminist, anti-woman, and sex-negative.

if anyone wants to talk to me about this further, i'd be glad to. email me directly at zenzilejones@yahoo.com.

what if a person who was never raped or harmed finds